TMD 009 : Using Instagram To Grow a Following and “Nodding On a Flight To Taipei” with Tyler McCall

LT: So, Tyler, thank you so much for coming on to the That Marketing Dude Show and co-hosting this episode with me.

TM: Yeah, thanks for having me.

LT: So I’ve introduced you in the intro to this episode, but would you like to go ahead and tell the dudes and dudettes who you are, where you’re from, what it is that you do online and any sort of, like, travelling or future travel plans that you have.

TM: Yeah. So my name is Tyler McCall and I live in Asheville, North Carolina, which is a fun little hippy town in the western part of North Carolina in the Blue Ridge Mountains. I’m originally from North Carolina. I grew up here and have been in Asheville for about five years. And I am an Instagram marketing expert. So I work with entrepreneurs and small business owners and start-ups, and help them create strategies for Instagram. Then I also dabble in some Facebook, Facebook ads and email marketing; that fun stuff as well. But before I did this – I’ve actually been full-time doing this since earlier this year or actually 2016 in February, so almost a year now. And before that I was in the non-profit world. So for six years I was in marketing and membership for a major non-profit and really enjoyed my time there, and it was cool because I think I learned a lot of lessons in that world about the power of stories and the power of connection and I’m able to apply that over into what I do now with Instagram.

And I live here in Asheville which is a tourist mecca. I think we were just on National Geographics or one of those; it was someone’s, like, top list or number one place to visit in the US for 2017, so there’s a lot to do here. But my partner and I love travelling. We were in San Francisco last summer for the first time which was incredible, and then we have a lot of travel plans this year. We’re going to hit up Chicago and Boston and hopefully a trip to Europe, maybe by the end of the year or 2018; neither one of us have been yet. So that is definitely on our list.

LT: Nice. Whereabouts in Europe are you thinking about going to?

TM: Well, of course I want to do the whole thing but probably starting the UK, maybe Spain, Italy. I really want to go to Barcelona. And then I feel like we just have to go to Iceland because everyone’s doing that right now.

LT: Yeah, Iceland is sort of, like, the perfect, like, stopover point. Yeah. So my recommendation would definitely be is to do, like, an extended, like, layover. That’s, like, a great way of sort of, like, squeezing in an extra country on your, like, travels.

TM: Yeah. Yeah, we’ll have to do it. Hopefully that’ll happen this year.

LT: Yeah. Because I did that when I went to Australia. I did, like, a one-month layover – I wouldn’t really call it a layover; it was one month. But, yeah, I stopped in Thailand for one month on the way to Australia just so it was, like, another place to cross off. And now I just have to go back.

TM: Yeah.

LT: I need to go back to Thailand at some point.

TM: How cool is that. I don’t want to spoil my story at the end, but it has to do with Southeast Asia and a trip I got to take there in college.

LT: I’m looking forward to that one.

TM: And I loved it. Yeah.

LT: Cool. So like you said in your intro, you are working with clients with Instagram, helping them make Instagram useful in their business. And so this is the reason why I wanted to have you come on to talk about Instagram, especially because I know I’m not really using Instagram properly at the moment. So I know I’m going to learn a lot from this conversation, and I know a lot of the dudes and dudettes listening will too. So specifically with Instagram, we’re going to be going over, like, how to grow an engaged following, how to build relationships with these people and how to convert your Instagram followers into customers and, like, building, like, email lists and all that good stuff.

TM: Yes. And it’s interesting with Instagram. I have been on Instagram since it started. If you scroll back really far in my feed, it’s really embarrassing the terrible photos I used to post. I think a lot of us are like that. I don’t why I thought my, like, dinner at 8 o’clock in the evening at some restaurant with terrible lighting was interesting to people, but I did. So I was not using it in a strategic way, really, until earlier this year. And I buckled down, started doing the research, started paying attention to what other people were doing and then really went to work in the summer of 2016 and started building my following. And it was crazy how quickly it can happen when you’re doing it the right way. And that’s a lot of what I talk about is the right way to go about Instagram and doing it with a plan and a strategy behind it. I think a lot of times the social media people think either, “It’s another thing to do so I just need to cross it off my list,” or, “It doesn’t really matter because it’s free so no one really cares.” But when you use it right, it can do incredible things for your business. And I’m at a point now in my business where all of my business comes from Instagram and referrals; that’s it.

LT: Wow.

TM: I don’t market anywhere else. So it’s just coming from the work I do there to build relationships and then people that’ve had good experiences with me after working with me.

LT: Fantastic. So shall we just dive right in?

TM: Yeah, let’s do it.

LT: Excellent.

TM: So I love Instagram and the reason that I focus so much on it is because it is the most engaging platform. So I’m sure you know this, being on social media, that a lot of times you can put a lot of work in and it feels like you’re not getting anything in return for all that effort. So the cool thing on Instagram is that when you look at all the platforms compared to each other – three which are Instagram, Facebook and Twitter – Instagram always come out on top as far as engagement and the life of your content. So your content on Instagram lasts longer than other platforms and, on average, more people engage with content on Instagram than other places. What do you think is the worst platform for engagement?

LT: Out of those three or - - -

TM: Yeah.

LT: Okay. Twitter.

TM: Yeah, Twitter’s the worst. Just because it goes so fast. Like, you can’t keep up with it at all. So that’s why Instagram - - -

LT: Yeah. That’s why you can sort of, like, get away with posting, like, the same thing, like, four times a day and not worry about people, like, seeing it four times, five times. Because, yeah, your newsfeed just goes so quickly, whereas, like, Facebook at least, they have, like, special algorithms that populates your newsfeed. So, you know, you could have, like, 5000 friends but you’re not going to see every single post that all those 5000 people are posting. Whereas on Twitter, you would.

TM: Yeah. Exactly. And Instagram has kind of gotten into the algorithm game, and I think summer of 2016 they rolled out – they said they were rolling out a new algorithm. People complained. They said that they would let us know when they ended up rolling it out, and then we kind of haven’t heard anything from them since then. But Instagram’s trying to implement an algorithm kind of like Facebook, and since they’re owned by Facebook it makes sense for them to do that where, you know, they’ll start guessing what content you’re interested in seeing. So that’s why I think now is even a more important time, before all of that really ramps up, because we’re already seeing the effects of it, to start building that engaged following so people are there when, you know, maybe 12 months from now they’re not seeing your stuff as often as they are now.

LT: Yeah. And, I mean, one of the points that I wanted to bring up was that Instagram is excellent for anybody with, like, a personal brand. Just because if you’re the face of your business, then you should definitely be on Instagram. Because like you said, it is one of the most, like, engaging platforms too. Like, you know, you can have conversations with, like, your audience, you know. You can create those one-on-one relationships with people, and what I’ve got written down on my notes is that it’s a great way to show people that the person behind the website is a real person.

TM: Yeah.

LT: You know, you can show people behind the scenes of your business; you can show them, you know, what’s going on in your personal life. You don’t have to show them everything that’s going on in your personal life, but, you know, you can show people, like, what’s something that you’re up to today and, you know, people can see that you are a real person; you aren’t some sort of, like, fictional perfect person that they’ve made up in their head. No, you do have bad days and you also have good days.

TM: Yeah. I think that’s so cool about Instagram, especially, like you said, if you are the face of your business. And, I mean, honestly, it can tough for big businesses or even larger brands on Instagram to get that across. I work with some who, you know, they’ve built followings of tens of thousands and they’re successful businesses, but then communicating that on Instagram kind of – what I usually say is the heart of your work, you know, why you do what you do can be tough for them. But if you’re the face of your business, it’s so easy to use Instagram. And now with Instagram stories and Instagram live, it’s even easier to do more of that stuff and tell more of those stories than you can do on really some of the other platforms. It’s not – I mean, Instagram has gotten highly curated. It looks – you know, for a lot of – even for me personally, like, I’m really intentional about what I post, I plan out my content, I stage my photos; all of that. But that’s because I’ve built this aesthetic and that’s why people followed me, and then they stick around because I’m consistent in that. I know that was something that you know is important too.

LT: Yep.

TM: That consistency piece on Instagram is so key.

LT: Yeah. Because like you said, you know, your posts have, like, a longer life date than what, like, Twitter does. But it’s still important to be posting consistently so you are showing up in people’s feeds regularly, you know, so you’re always in their minds at some point.

TM: Yeah. Definitely. And something I also talk a lot about with Instagram and with people is about the number of followers you have. And I think for anyone listening who is just getting started with Instagram or maybe you’ve been on Instagram for six months or a year and you just can’t grow your following, you’ve been stuck at the same 400 followers for, like, the past six months. And it’s really annoying and I know people get hung up on that. But I don’t think the number of followers you have is that important for most people. And I think a lot of people get hung up thinking you have to tens of thousands or 100,000 followers to kind of show, you know, “social proof”, that thing that people love to talk about in the digital marketing world. You have to have social proof that what you’re doing is working.

But I don’t know if that’s always true with Instagram. If you’re influencer, sure, you want a larger following. But even in that way, a lot of brands are looking for loyalty of your following more so than the number of followers you have now. So I think it’s all about the quality of followers you have, and I always tell people I’d rather have 10 engaged followers than 1000 unengaged followers. And another thing I love to say, which I wish I would’ve coined this, but I read somewhere. But the idea that being rich in Instagram followers is like being rich in Monopoly money; it doesn’t buy you much at the end of the day.

So a lot of times what you see is there are people on Instagram, big brands, influencers, even Instagram experts who have tens or hundreds of thousands of followers, and then you go look and they have 20 likes on their photo. And for me something about that doesn’t add up. It doesn’t mean they bought followers or likes; it just means that they don’t have the right people following them. And that can kind of mess you up in the end because you may have – it’s the same with having an email list, right. I mean, you can have a list of thousands of people, but if they don’t open your emails you’re wasting your time.

LT: Yeah. Like you said, it’s all about quality over quantity for sure.

TM: Exactly. And I think a lot of people get hung up on looking at what other people are doing. I hear people saying this all the time, like, “Well, the Kardashians can post whatever they want,” or, “This funny meme account I follow can post whatever they want and they get tons of engagement.” But they’re the Kardashians or they’re a funny meme account; they’re not, you know, a random consultant from whatever town you’re from that a lot of people don’t know about. So when you’re starting out, you have to be really intentional about what you’re doing; you can’t just post whatever you want. You have to have some kind of strategy behind it on Instagram, just like you have for any other marketing for your business.

LT: Yeah. And so I’ve just had a look at my Instagram account, and at the moment I’ve got 298 followers. And I know not all of those are – well, I haven’t really posted anything in a while either, which I know is bad. And like I said, I’m going to learn a lot from this conversation too. But, yeah, I’ve got 298 followers and I’ve posted 111 times, and there’s no structure to it; there’s no sort of, like, plan to it; it’s just, like, random stuff that I’ve posted and sort of, like, one guest posting event that I held. I posted 31 images or 30 of those images were from that event. So, like, those other 81 posts are, like, completely random shit, basically.

TM: Yeah. And that’s what – I mean, honestly, that’s what I was doing before I got intentional about it. So, like I said, I’ve been doing social media marketing full-time for a year now. Before that I was dabbling in it for a couple of years, but I really homed in on Instagram and kind of, like – I think it was around June of 2016 when we went to San Francisco, and I came away from that trip saying, “I want to be more intentional about this.” And if I’m going to teach people social media, I kind of need to, you know, look like I know what I’m talking about. So I got intentional with Instagram, and from July until December of 2016 I grew my following from 1800 to almost 10,000.

LT: Wow.

TM: And that was by really nailing down my content and my visual identity, so being consistent in what I was posting, finally deciding who the fuck I was talking to. That’s the thing that a lot of people don’t – they’re posting online without any strategy behind who they’re talking to. And I think what a lot of people get hung up on is we’ll work with anyone. We’ll take anyone’s money, right. I mean, virtually anyone’s. But at the end of the day, you’re trying to attract a specific person. I mean, I think most of us want to work with either a specific kind of business or a specific person, you know, whoever it is. So if you’re not talking to that person, using their language, posting things they want to see, then they’re not going to follow you. They’re not going to hire you from the internet. They’re not going to be interested in what you’re saying.

So I got really specific about who I was talking to, and then I started engaging more than I posting. So this is the other thing a lot of times I see businesses in particular get hung up on is they get on Instagram, they post, they go over to Facebook, they post, they post their tweet for the day and then they’re, like, “All right, I’m done. My social media’s done for the day.” But if you’re not engaging more than you’re posting, you’re not doing anything to build a community on Instagram and that’s where Instagram really shines is building that community of loyal and engaged people that then you can sell to. And that’s why I think, you know, I’m at that point in my business where I can just – I put something out there that’s of value to my followers and they want it because I’m providing them value on such a regular basis.

So once I nailed down those things – and I’ve actually – through all this work, I’ve put together kind of what I call my Instagram blueprint. So there’s six things that I teach that are the key factors for success on Instagram. I’d love to walk through those with you, if you want to hear about that.

LT: Yeah, yeah. Please do, man. I’d love to know sort of, like, where I’m fucking up and the things that I should be doing, and I’m sure there’s loads of other people that will get a lot from this too. So, yeah, jump in with number one, dude.

TM: Okay. Cool. So number one I already said; it’s your audience. So you have to be specific about who you’re talking to. And the thing I like to – so I’m sure we’ve all seen those client avatar worksheets, right. I feel like everyone has one.

LT: Yep.

TM: I think you have one, don’t you?

LT: Yep, yep. I do one.

TM: Yeah.

LT: I have, like, a little guide on how to define your perfect audience.

TM: Yeah. Exactly. So that is so important. So what I want you to do and everyone to do this is take it a step further and start thinking about where that person hangs out online. So who do they follow? What kind of content do they respond to? And the most important thing you need to understand is what gets them to click through to something. So what triggers them? What kind of freebie is it? And that’s another thing to think about is I’ve been reading and listening to a lot of stuff that people are starting to say that maybe the traditional lead magnet needs to change a little bit, right. Like, our customers are getting smart; they know what we’re trying to do. So start thinking about how you can exchange an email address for some valuable content in a different way. So start considering who your audience is and what they want; what they want from you; what they’re listening to; what they’re reading; what they’re watching online. So you can meet them where they are with that kind of content.

LT: Awesome. Yeah. So I have, like, one thing I wanted to bring up that’s sort of related to this and, like, how you can sort of, like, find these people is how important, like, hashtags are.

TM: Yes.

LT: And the fact that it’s a great way not only for, like, people to find you but you to find other people as well.

TM: Yeah. Hashtags are so important. And a lot of people – some folks follow a couple accounts. So I hear some folks who say, “I don’t want to use hashtags because I look desperate,” to which I say, “That’s stupid.” You’re missing out on potential followers and customers. So you have to use hashtags. And some people just don’t know how to use them. So what I encourage people to do is use hashtags that are really specific to who you’re trying to attract. So, you know, if you have, you know, folks who are listening that are into, you know, the whole travel thing, doing travel blogging or travel influencers, using a generic hashtag “travel” hashtag is fine, but go look at how many posts are in a travel hashtag like that. There’s millions. So the likelihood of you getting found is – it may not be that high. So think more strategically and specifically. Like, what are the specific things your people are looking for? And then hashtag those things.

LT: And the other problem with using hashtags like that too is that all these, like, big popular ones, you know, people have – I’m assuming they’re like bots that just, like, automatically like that sort of stuff. So if you do use those generic hashtags, then you’re going to find that, like, whatever you’re posting is going to get a lot of likes and thumbs up, but it’s going to get no engagement. And the people that end up following you aren’t usually – well, they’re potentially not even a real account.

TM: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So I like being really strategic with hashtags, but you have to use them. I never get when people say they don’t use hashtags; that drives me crazy. So I use all – you can use up to 30 on Instagram. I use all 30 of them, and then I switch them out too. I look at what’s working, what’s not working, see which hashtag – because some I started using when there were maybe 100,000 posts in that hashtag; now there’s 500,000 posts. I stop using it. There’s too many things going into that hashtag. So the likelihood of me getting found is really low.

LT: Awesome. Yeah. And always make sure – well, something I recommend you do is to put those into the first comment of that post. Don’t stick all 30 hashtags in the description of the post.

TM: Yes.

LT: Because that just looks terrible. And then as soon as you’ve got three or four comments on that post, all those hashtags will disappear but they will still be effective.

TM: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, you can definitely use them but you don’t have to show them to the whole world while you’re using them.

LT: Exactly.

TM: So once you’ve nailed down your audience, the next thing I want you to think about is your goal. So your goal on Instagram. And really getting to a point where everything that you post has a motive behind it. And it doesn’t have to be some kind of ulterior, you know, terrible motive. But you want your posts to be working for you. So you want it to either build a relationship with your audience or you want it to provide value to your audience or you want it to sell something. Whatever it is, there should be a goal behind everything you’re posting on Instagram. And the reason this is so important is because most people – and tell me if this happens to you. Most people get caught up in what I call “oh shit” posting.

LT: Yeah.

TM: Which is when you go, “Oh shit, I haven’t posted in a week.” And you put something up.

LT: Yeah. You just find something random that you think people will be interested in and throw it up.

TM: Exactly. And if you’re running your whole business as an “oh shit” business, then I would wager and bet that there’s probably not a lot of good stuff happening for you. So the same thing with Instagram. You can’t just “oh shit” your way through Instagram; you have to have a goal behind everything you’re putting up. And you can do that in a lot of different ways. Some people use editorial calendars, some people plan their content on a weekly basis, some do it on a monthly basis. I know most of my clients, I work with them to plan it a month at a time. But then my personal content I just kind of do day-by-day because I don’t really practice what I preach sometimes, which I think we all do. But, yeah, just having some goal behind what you’re posting so your content’s working for you and you’re not wasting your time. I mean, all of our time is so valuable, especially if you’re working for yourself. There’s only so much you can do, and especially if you – you know, if you’re outsourcing stuff or using a virtual assistant and then you’re doing things like wasting your time by posting random shit on Instagram, you’re just throwing that money away for someone like that.

LT: Yeah.

TM: So be more intentional about that. And then the next thing is your story, so what makes you unique. So this is another thing I like to be brutally honest with people about, and that is at the end of the day most of us are posting the same kind of shit on Instagram. So if you go look at my feed, it looks nice. It’s bright; it’s white; I post a lot of flat-lays and office supplies; I post some food; that kind of stuff. And then if you go look in the hashtags I use, you’re going to see a lot of other bright, white posts with flat-lays and office supplies. That’s what a lot of people are doing. In the travel space, you know, I’m sure a lot of people are posting, you know, similar photos, maybe from similar places. So your photo can’t be the only thing that kind of gets you by on Instagram. So that’s why your story, and then also the fourth thing is your voice. Those are really important on Instagram, and those get overlooked a lot.

So the story part is what makes you unique. So why do you do what you do? What unique experiences have you had that make you the best at what you do? Why are you an expert? All of those things that you have to – and, honestly, it’s a struggle. All those things, you kind of have to fight against your – you know, whatever feelings you have about not being confident or feeling like you’re an impostor. You’ve got to fight against that because you have to tell your story on Instagram.

And then the fourth thing is your voice, so how you speak online. And that’s again, something that a lot of people miss out on. And I’ve put a lot of work into that for me and developed a really (inaudible) voice that’s intentional on my Instagram feed. I’m strategic about what I say. I know what I’m trying to accomplish with everything I post. And that turns into results; the comments and inquiries and messages and people on my list, because I’m being intentional about what I’m saying. I’m not just relying on the photos I post.

LT: So when you say that, are you talking about sort of, like, how you reply to comments that people leave and, like, the description that you leave for that image as well?

TM: Yeah. Exactly.

LT: Okay.

TM: So a lot of times what people get hung up on is the fact that your photo and your caption have to match. But I’m here to tell that they do not. So your caption can be totally unrelated to your photo, as long as it’s in line with your brand and your identity and all those things on Instagram. So a lot of times I – I have some main goals that I do on Instagram. I try to inspire and encourage my audience, because my ideal client is a creative entrepreneur. So they need encouragement and inspiration because they’re trying to do the damn thing; they’re hustling; you know, they’re struggling to pay their bills; they’re overworked; whatever it may be. So I want to encourage them and be, like, “Hey, me too.” And then the other thing I’m trying to do is educate my audience. So I’m trying to give them helpful tips or information about Instagram or social media or email marketing, and part of that is – and we’ll talk about this a little bit later in providing value. Part of that is to give them reason to follow me and build that trust, and part of it is this motive too of, like, “I want to establish my credibility and my authority in my space by doing that.” So I have a really strong voice in those ways; I’m casual; I’m fun; I curse in my captions; I use the word “y’all” because I’m from the south. Like, those types of things that wouldn’t fit in some people’s captions.

LT: Well, like you said, it’s all about, like, your voice. So you should just, like, write things as if that’s how you would, like, say it out loud naturally.

TM: Exactly.

LT: And that’s also – like I said at the beginning about it being great for personal brands. It’s a way to show your audience that you’re a real person; you’re not, you know, changing the way you talk because it’s Instagram or whatever the platform is. If you curse, then curse. If you say “y’all”, say “y’all”.

TM: Yeah. Exactly. And I think you have to do a few things. You have to use Instagram as a marketing tool, because that’s what it is. If you’re using it for your business, it’s a marketing tool. There’s really no “if”, “ands” or “buts” about it. But you also have to be you on Instagram too. Like you said, you can’t get hung up in this idea of you have to be perfect and polished on the internet. Because people don’t – I mean, I don’t know. I don’t really want to work with someone’s that perfect and polished. That annoys me a little bit. So you have to be true to who you are. So the voice is important there.

LT: Awesome.

TM: And then the next thing is your identity. So that’s what you look like on Instagram. And, again, people get hung up here by thinking, “I don’t have a nice camera”, “I don’t have professional photos”, whatever it may be. I do all my photos on my iPhone. I edit them on my phone. I don’t use any kind of fancy camera to do my pictures. And if you feel like you can’t take photos or you don’t know how to take photos, you can either build an account that’s based on regramming which – regramming is a really popular thing to do. I think there’s some good strategies you can do for regramming other people’s posts. Of course, always asking permission and giving credit is super important there. Or there’s so much styled stock photography out there now that you can find virtually anything you want on either – that you can pay for or there’s all kinds of cool websites that have free stock photography too that you can use. So there’s tons of ways to build a really consistent identity on Instagram that gives people a reason to follow you.

LT: So when you’re talking about identity, one of the things I wanted to bring up was talking about, like, the different types of posts that you should, like, put on Instagram.

TM: Yeah.

LT: Things like – obviously it all depends on, like, what works in your space. But, you know, it could be, like, quotes or recipes, behind the scenes, inspirational stuff, personal pictures; like, that’s the sort of stuff that you’re talking about when it comes to identity.

TM: Exactly.

LT: Okay.

TM: Yeah. Yeah. And also just picking out, you know, what are those key elements of maybe your brand or your aesthetic that you want to carry over to Instagram. I think that’s an important thing to incorporate with your identity too.

LT: Yep. Yeah, so that’s the other thing I wrote too is, like, branding those pictures with, like, maybe your company’s, like, colour palette. You know, maybe put, like, your little logo in the corner. If you’re putting text over the top, use the same fonts that you use on your website. You know, so when people are scrolling through their feed, they know it’s you because it’s the same branding, you know, throughout everything.

TM: Exactly. Yeah. And I incorporate – so my brand colours are white, blue, brown and this kind of – what I had a designer friend call hipster pink. So it’s like that – you know, that dusty salmon pink colour. So I incorporate those colours to my feed. So I have a notebook that’s the colour blue; that’s my brand colour. So I put that in a lot of my photos, or really subtle things like that so it’s super consistent. And then when they go to my website, they see those same colours. When they find me on Facebook, you know, my cover image on Facebook uses those same colours. So I’m being strategic about that. So I’m kind of creating this whole experience for my followers.

LT: Awesome.

TM: And then the last piece of this is engagement. So I think that you have to engage more than you post. So like I said earlier, you can’t just post on Instagram and sign off and think that’s all you have to do. So engagement can look like a few different things, and the first one which is easy which is responding to comments. So saying thank you when someone compliments your photo, answering questions if they ask you a question. And then the second part are those outward strategies, so are you going out and finding your ideal client on Instagram and engaging with them to bring them back to your profile. So that’s a really key thing too for kind of building that community of people that care about what you’re posting.

LT: Yeah. And that’s where you can obviously use, like, the hashtags to find these people as well.

TM: Yes.

LT: I do have one question about that.

TM: Yeah.

LT: You know, you were saying, like, going out and, like commenting on other people’s stuff is more important. Is there – there probably isn’t, but is there sort of, like, a certain sort of, like, ratio of, like, outreach that you should be doing compared to, like, the posts that you’re, like posting?

TM: Yeah. I’m glad you asked. So what I say is 10 to one. So for every one thing you put up, you should be engaging with 10 new people. And, I mean, for a lot of people it depends on the amount of time you have. Like, if this is your side hustle or you’re working on a gig on the side, you don’t have a ton of time to spend on Instagram, you know, doing whatever. But just five minutes a day, you know, whatever it is. But for every one thing you post, going out and finding 10 new people and giving them some likes; leaving some meaningful comments, not just an emoji thumbs up but something meaningful that relates to their photo. That’s how you’re going to attract them back to your profile.

LT: Yeah. And then, like you said, don’t use an emoji or whatever, because that’s the sort of crap that, like, the bots post.

TM: Exactly.

LT: So, you know, if you say something that’s about the image that they’ve posted, then you’re going to stand out for all the other comments.

TM: Yeah.

LT: And, you know, they’re going to know that you’re a real person too.

TM: Exactly. And, I mean, the worst is when people say things like, “This is a beautiful photo,” when someone’s posting, like, their dog just died. And that happens. People do that because they’re using those, you know, different robots and things that do it for them. Yeah, so the meaningful comments are important.

LT: Yeah. I mean, I get a few when I, like, post, like, a quote or something, of people, like, saying, “That’s an awesome shot.”

TM: Yeah.

LT: It’s, like, no, clearly that wasn’t you that said it.

TM: Yes. Exactly. And so then I think the key thing here, which you already mentioned this at the beginning, is when you’re putting all this together, consistency is the key thing. So just think about the accounts that you – if you follow accounts on Instagram that aren’t, you know, your friends or college roommate or, you know, family members, whoever it is, if you follow these accounts, you’re following them for a reason. So most likely they’re being consistent in what they’re posting. So their photos either look the same consistently or they’re saying consistent things or they engage with you regularly; whatever it may be. But you have to be consistent. And those accounts are probably providing value for you somehow.

So the question I ask people is think about how you can entertain, educate or inspire your audience. And just pick one of those things and start there, and then you can grow from – and, you know, for some people, they can do all three; some people can only do two; or some people just do one of those things. And think about how you can provide value to them so they have a reason to stick around. So I like the whole idea of giving until it hurts and then giving a little bit more.

LT: I like that.

TM: Yeah. So your focus on Instagram is, you know, building meaningful relationships with your followers through value-filled content, because you want them to trust and respect you. And like I said earlier, giving that value, especially if it’s education, if you’re in a field where you can ever educate your audience and you’re not using social media to do that, you are missing out in a huge way. Because people show up for free stuff, and people definitely show up on social media for free little educational bits that you can share with them. So if you’re not doing that, you’re missing out on a ton of credibility and authority in your field that you can build through something like Instagram by providing that value.

LT: Yeah. I mean, there’s loads of, like, accounts out there that are really good at providing value; provide, like, entertainment; promoting their stuff, you know. Find some accounts out there that you like the look of and you think are doing, like, a really good job. And you can tell if they’re doing a really good job because they get lots of meaningful comments on their posts; you know, they’ve got a decent size following; and, you know, see what they’re doing. You know, see – does each post have something in common or, you know, is there a theme going on with certain types of posts. And that will give you ideas for how you can create your own Instagram strategy as well. And, you know, I’ve got a couple that I like looking at; one of them is – it’s an account called Tone It Up. It’s these two girls that do a lot of fitness stuff, and they post a lot of short workout programs that they have on their website and they say, “Link in the bio for more details.”

TM: Nice.

LT: And then, you know, they’ve got, like, short pictures of food; of recipes that they’ve done as well; they’ve got pictures of them behind the scenes. You know, they’ve got, like – you can see they’ve clearly got, like, three or four different style of pictures and they just, like, rotate, like, doing each of them. So you can use a lot of other accounts.

TM: Yeah. And they’re providing you so much value. And then I’m sure, if they were pitching something on Instagram, I mean, you’d probably think a little bit about buying it because they’ve given so much away for free.

LT: Yeah.

TM: And you trust them, you know. They’ve done all that work already.

LT: Exactly.

TM: So the last piece of all of this is the real kicker which is how you get people onto your list and how you turn them into customers. So I’ll rave about Instagram all day long and talk about how much I love it, but at the end of the day if you want to sell to your customers you have to get them off of Instagram. And that’s where a lot of people have a lot of trouble is they build these social media strategies and then they never know how to get people off of those platforms into other places. And you can do so many cool things with social media, and you can make so many relationships happen and so much community happen on social media. I think Facebook groups – that’s where we met. Facebook groups are an amazing place to do that, and consider those for your brand. But if you really want some stuff to happen, if you want to have a transaction or you’re exchanging money for goods or services, you typically have to get people off of social media.

So the way that I do this on Instagram – and this works for me. I’ve doubled my list in the past three months using these strategies. So all I do – it’s so simple – is I just ask my followers if I can put them on my list. It’s stupid how simple it is, but what I’ve done is I’m providing value constantly; I’m always building relationships; they trust me with their email address; and all I have to say is, “Hey, I want to send out this thing I made,” or, “Hey, I want to share more valuable content with you. Can I put you on my email list?” And the number of people that – and I do it a couple of times a month, I’ll ask people. And I get dozens of responses just people giving me their email address. No questions asked, because they want - - -

LT: People just leave their email address in the comments?

TM: I get them to message it to me.

LT: Okay.

TM: Yeah. So just sending me a direct message with their email address. And it’s so simple, how that works. And there’s a lot of other strategies that I use and I teach about using giveaways, and how to kind of take a lead magnet or content upgrade or whatever you call it and transferring that to Instagram in a strategic way that I won’t give away now. But there’s a lot of other ways to do this, but the simplest way to do it is just to ask. And especially now with Instagram stories and Instagram live, those are such incredible tools to really deepen your relationship with your followers. And Instagram stories has been the best thing for my business since it came along, and I use it in a strategic way to educate my audience on a regular basis and they love it. And that’s where I get a lot of the list building is coming from Instagram stories in particular.

LT: Awesome. Man, the time has flown by in this conversation.

TM: I know.

LT: I can’t even believe we’re on to, like, 35 minutes already.

TM: I’ve kept you too long, I’m sorry.

LT: No, no. That was perfectly fine, man. That’s good. I’ve learnt a lot myself. Like, it’s things that I’ve sort of, like, thought about myself and I know that I should be doing. But, you know, hearing it coming from you who clearly know what you’re talking about, it’s making me realise, okay, I need to step my game up for damn sure.

TM: Yeah.

LT: Especially because of, like, the space I’m in as well. You know, being, like, a digital nomad and, like, all the travelling stuff, that is one of the more popular, like, industries that use it because it’s such a visual, like, space to be in.

TM: Yeah. Definitely. Yeah.

LT: So, man, I’m definitely going to be using some of that. I do have one question really quickly before we jump into the rapid-fire session.

TM: Yeah.

LT: So you can get personal accounts and business accounts. Is there a preference on which one you should be using if, you know, you are trying to use Instagram to build your business?

TM: Yes. This is such a hot topic. So I use a personal account right now. I used a business account for a little while. Business accounts provide you a couple of cool things that personal accounts don’t. So business accounts give you the ability to advertise directly from Instagram, which if you don’t have a business account you have to do that through something like Ads Manager or Power Editor through Facebook. So that was cool. They also give you incredible insights, which is the thing that I really liked. And I am a firm believer – and this may be totally false and someone may, like, reply to this podcast and say, “He doesn’t know what the hell he’s talking about.” But I’m a firm believer that no one’s data about your Instagram following is going to be as good as Instagram’s.

So there’s tons of third-party tools out there that will tell you your followers and their demographics and when they’re online and all those things, but I just don’t trust them. I don’t really trust Instagram or Facebook either, but I’m probably on some list now for saying that. But I think their data’s going to be stronger than a third party. So that’s a cool thing you get too. And what Instagram will show you through a business profile is when your followers are online, and a lot of free tools that you’ll use, they’re going to analyse your past posting history to show you when your followers have engaged with your content in the past, not necessarily when they’re online.

Now, all that to say business profiles are cool, but we know that Instagram, now being owned by Facebook, I think it’s going to get tricky soon if you have a business profile and I imagine the algorithm will start limiting your reach if you have a business profile. And that’s just naturally – that’s what happened to pages. I can imagine, you know, probably 12 to 18 months we’ll see the same thing on Instagram. So what I tell people to do is switch to a business profile now, leave it for four to six weeks so you can get the analytics out of it that Instagram provides you and then switch back to a personal account. Because they allow you to switch back for now. So I did that myself. I do that for my clients because I want to get that really good insight data, really understand my reach in my impressions and all of that through Instagram, and then I switch back to a personal because I guess that I’m scared Instagram is going to start limiting my reach by using a business profile.

LT: Yeah. I’ve heard a lot of people, like, say – have mixed feelings about the business account, and a lot of people have sort of, like, regretted making that switch and have always gone back to the personal account. So, as I said, I just wanted to ask you to see what your thoughts were on that as well.

TM: Yeah. Definitely. Yeah, I think Instagram will be a different world a year from now with those business accounts and how the algorithm plays out. But like I said, now I’m getting in and building that momentum before all that happens.

LT: Sweet, man. I think that was an awesome chat.

TM: Thank you.

LT: I learnt a lot myself and I’m sure a lot of other people have learnt something too. So, dude, again, thank you so much. But before you go, we do have one more thing to do and that is the rapid-fire question session. Are you ready?

TM: I’m ready.

LT: Cool. So - - -

TM: Yeah (inaudible) intro music for this session.

LT: I have been thinking that lately, actually. It’s something I should try and do. We’ll see what people think. If people want me to put music in, then I’ll start doing some music. So I want the first answer that comes to your head as we go through these questions.

TM: Okay.

LT: So question number one: what is your favourite country that you’ve been to so far?

TM: I think Singapore has been my favourite.

LT: Very nice. What is the last YouTube video or movie that you’ve watched?

TM: Last movie? I just watched The Almanac Project yesterday. It’s on Hulu. It was kind of terrible, but I liked it.

LT: What is the weirdest thing you’ve eaten?

TM: It’s – I mean, it’s durian. Yeah, weirdest thing. So gross.

LT: I love durian. What is your favourite drinking game?

TM: I really love Never Have I Ever. I think that’s fun.

LT: I like that one too. If you could meet one person, living or dead, who would it be?

TM: Barack Obama. Yeah.

LT: That’s probably my favourite answer so far. I’d love to meet that man.

TM: Me too. Or Justin Trudeau. One or the other.

LT: Definitely Barack Obama out of the two of those for me. Name one book you would recommend everybody should read.

TM: Oh yeah. I really love The Desire Map by Danielle Laporte. I just finished that up this year. It’ll really help you kind of refine what you’re doing and what you care about.

LT: Awesome. What is your go-to song when you need to get into the mood to get shit done?

TM: That’s a hard one. I don’t listen to music that much when I’m working.

LT: Really?

TM: I don’t. This is so funny. I watch The Joy of Painting with Bob Ross. It’s on Netflix. It is such good, like, Zen background working music. That’s really funny. Yeah, I don’t have anything.

LT: Well, I’ll take Bob Ross. That’s good.

TM: All right.

LT: What is your favourite swearword that you’ve learnt in another language?

TM: I don’t really have any. So I studied sign language in college, so there were a lot of fun ones that we learned in sign language. So I can’t really – I don’t know how to represent them over a podcast. I will say that our instructor taught a lesson about – so the difference between plates and female genitals. The sign is not very different, so you have to be careful how you sign it and he gave us some examples of how that can go wrong.

LT: I like it.

TM: Yeah.

LT: What is your favourite podcast apart from this one?

TM: I’m a huge Amy Porterfield fan. So I listen to Online Marketing Made Easy, like, all day every day.

LT: Awesome. And final question: can you give me your best travel story you have in under five minutes.

TM: Yes. Okay. So in college I had the chance – I already mentioned it. I went to Singapore for an internship which was cool. I was there for about two weeks. And it was my first time out of the country. I had not travelled that much at that point, and I was very – as you can probably tell, I sound like a very nice, young, sweet young man. And I was on this flight from Minneapolis to Narita to change planes to Singapore, and I was sitting next to the window next to this very nice couple from Taipei. And they – let’s see. I think the husband was on the aisle seat and the wife was next to me and I was in the window seat. And somehow we struck up a conversation, and the wife talked to me probably half of the flight. Here was the thing: she was not speaking English. And I did not speak the language she was speaking. I don’t know if they were from Taipei; that’s where they were going.

So I just smiled and nodded the entire time that she was talking to me. And finally after a couple of hours, her husband looked up and he was, like – he, like, said something to her and she looked at me with a really puzzled look on her face. And I guess she realised that he had told her that I didn’t understand what she was saying. But I just smiled because, you know, I have these nice Southern manners. So I just smiled and nodded the entire time. We had a great conversation. I don’t know what the hell we talked about, but it was great. And then the rest of the flight, every time they got up to use the bathroom I had to get up too. Like, I was asleep and they would tap me on the shoulder and they would kind of – like, they didn’t want me to have to get up when they were back in their seats. So when they went to the bathroom, it was time for me to go to the bathroom too. So, yeah, that was my funny travel story. That’s when my good manners, I guess, got me in – not really in trouble, but I guess I wasted a few hours of potential sleep or movie watching time.

LT: So how long was this lady talking to you before the husband pointed out that you didn’t have a clue what she was saying?

TM: It could have easily been three hours.

LT: Wow.

TM: And, now, I am not a good plane traveller because I get sick. So I’m usually Dramamine’d up while I’m on a plane, so it could’ve been 12 minutes. But it felt – it was a long time that she and I – I was just smiling and nodding, and she was talking to me the whole time. It was great.

LT: I mean, if it was three hours, then that woman can really talk.

TM: I know. Well, you know you can’t hear anything on a plane anyway. So I don’t know what she was trying – I don’t know. I couldn’t understand what she was saying because it was really loud and because it was another language.

LT: That’s awesome, man. Thanks for sharing that story.

TM: Yeah, of course.

LT: So, again, Tyler, thank you so much for coming on the show. Where can people find you online?

TM: Yeah. So you can find me on Instagram @tylerjmccall. And then I’m also tylerjmccall.com. And I’ll be having a new course called The Power of Instagram Stories coming out soon, so you can definitely check that out and get on the list to be the first to know when it rolls out.

LT: Perfect. And if you guys can’t find any of those links or you didn’t write them down properly or whatever, I’ll be listing all of that in the show notes for this episode. So just head straight over there and you can find Tyler that way. So, again, dude, thank you so much for coming on to the show and I will talk to you soon.

TM: Thanks for having me. Bye-bye.

LT: Take care. Bye.

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